Joe disagrees.
Vehemently.
What do you think?
Wednesday, August 31, 2011
What Do You Think?
Joe disagrees.
Vehemently.
What do you think?
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Joe disagrees.
Vehemently.
What do you think?
Joe disagrees.
Vehemently.
What do you think?
Mostly the Guardian article is so full of ridiculous, unsubstantiated claims it not only shows how clueless people on that side of the line are about these matters, it also shows how pointless it is to try and correct them. If they can be this wrong-headed there's little chance of them seeing things any other way.
ReplyDeleteNot that I'm saying I know better, just that the certainty with which they 'know' how badly things will turn out is amazing. It doesn't occur to them that the same arguments have been made before about VHS, tape cassettes, cut-price paperbacks etc.
mood
These new ways of publishing are bound to be looked upon with apprehension, it is the unknown, Until people have tried and tested it one will never know. Even in the conventional way of publishing and selling some people are find it difficult to get their money.
ReplyDeleteYvonne.
Change is scary. I think that's the problem. I think Joe is right, most artists don't get paid a lot for their work anyway. But quality content completely free? I don't think so.
ReplyDeleteI read Ewan's post the other day and found myself thinking that the guy was largely full of it. I think the mistake people make is assuming that every writer is a heavy hitter like Rowling or King, and that everyone who is published makes a buttload of money. It apparently doesn't happen that way.
ReplyDeleteI suggest you also read Joe's post from the 26th, where he and Blake Crouch discussed the publishing industry. An interesting read, and I find the whole thing a little overwhelming, to be honest.
Hmm, people do tend to condemn what they can't understand. Ebooks are big right now. I think that while the publishing world is changing we will find a happy medium eventually...and I really do hope it still involves making money. :)
ReplyDeleteI've read about this and I'm not sure. I'm not sure about any of the extreme positions. Changes are coming but I'm not sure we'll really know what they are until they happen. Do posts like that have agents and publishers quaking in their boots? Somehow I don't think so. Does that mean they are just ignoring the obvious or do they see things from a different perspective?
ReplyDeleteMoody - that article is really extreme. I kept thinking I was going to hear Chicken Little screaming in the background. But sometimes things go ways we never anticipate, so the points he raises bear consideration.
ReplyDeleteYvonne - and therein lies the rub. People (writers, publishers, agents) don't know how to proceed. Do you plan for the one (epub) or continue with what's actually happening now? People who threw all their money into planning for the Y2K collapse were really embarrassed when Armageddon didn't happen. But the danger was real.
JeffO - exactly. And how many writers are out there who spend a lifetime writing yet never make a dime? But is Joe right that people will all just self publish and make some money (and more get rich)?
Laila - I agree. The pendulum is swinging between two worlds, and we don't know where that happy medium will end. But if nothing else, opportunity abounds when everything's in flux.
Laura - I think we have to hope for the best and plan for the worst, and if I was a publisher or agent I'd be trying to find a way to function in both worlds. I wouldn't want to be Valentino who wasn't able to migrate from the old silent movies into the talkies. I'd be looking for a new, different kind of niche.
Believe me, people are making money and being found through E-Books.
ReplyDeleteWon't get paid? That's ridiculous. There are writers out there who only do E-Books, and they are earning a living writing them!
ReplyDeleteinternet piracy is scary and easy. if we dont safeguard against it, books and art will be passed around like music and movies...illegally, making a purchase unnecessary...
ReplyDeletesad world
I read that post yesterday, and I won't deny that I see some inkling of truth on both sides of the argument. While there is undeniably a power shift going on, I think there will always be opportunity for talented artists to make money doing what they love.
ReplyDeleteI'm actually more concerned about the potential decline of the printed book, since I'm hopelessly addicted to the feel and smell of paper as opposed to a reader.
I am so under educated in this area that I can't even venture an opinion.
ReplyDeleteHowever, everything is changing so fast as technology advances like a runaway train. Who knows where it will lead. Hopefully, not to our demise...........kt
I'm with Scott, I love real books.
ReplyDeleteDonna, one of the problems I see with the whole self-pub thing is all the support that currently goes on with the traditional publishers. Who edits the work? Who proofreads? Who designs the layout? Who markets? I know a lot of authors are being asked to take on a bigger piece of the promotional pie, but publishers offer a lot of support that self-pubbers won't have without paying. I can't afford to write my own book, let alone pay others for those things!
Hmm, sounds like a blog post in the making....
In response to Shelly above. This is like saying that yes people are still buying mega yachts and sailing the Med. Yes. But most people aren't.
ReplyDeleteI have published 8 novels with mainstream publishers over the years, and a few of those made decent money. But just for fun I decided to add it up and divide by the number of years I've been an author, working at it everyday (32 years). My average is just under $4000 a year, or, what my wife earns every 2 1/2 weeks.
Based on my long experience as an author with long-term contacts in traditional publishing, I say the Morrison article is spot on.
Sadly.
Shelly - I know, right? And I keep reading from authors who say that in spite of their work being pirated their sales actually go up. I guess it's just proof that not everyone pirates, and once people (even pirates) steal and like your stuff there's word of mouth advertising that takes place.
ReplyDeleteEllie - That does seem a rather dire prediction, doesn't it? It perhaps plays on the idea that writers will still agonize over their art even if there's no compensation. While that might be true for many, it doesn't mean they will just be willing to give away the fruits of their labors for free or allow themselves to be robbed.
Tara - I think based upon what I've read that piracy can create quite a dichotomy.
Scott - I love me some paper books as well, but I've also got a Nook.
I don't know what to think. Everything is moving and changing so fast, by the time I grasp where we are, it's changed. (kinda like buying a new computer..the moment you take it home, "they" come out with something new...)
ReplyDeleteAs Kindle owner, I've already noticed a transition in myself. I've found so many books for $2.99 and under that I'm finding it harder and harder to purchase the more expensive books. And as a writer, I find this interesting.
I also don't think taking out the publishing industry ultimately ends in poor "art." There are plenty of self-pubbed authors that have taken their work seriously (and it shows) by having their ms edited to death, nice cover art, etc.
But how much people are paid for that "art", I think only time will tell.
I agree that it's too soon to jump on either extreme end of this argument. Most of the online publishers who pay me for my work make it free to the public -- at least for specific period of time, if not for however long their sites remain up. I've toyed with the idea of ePublishing, but for now it's all about exposure for me. I need to build a readership.
ReplyDeleteI think it will be easier to get swindled or scammed, but writers and artists will still get paid. It's still business, and as long as people are willing to buy, writers will be able to sell.
ReplyDeletekt - yes, hopefully not to our demise. But I believe there are many writers who aren't in this for the money.
ReplyDeleteDonigan - might that change if your were to go electronic with a project and see how it goes? If you're making 70% of the profits it has to be more than 17%.
Barbara - I find myself frustrated when I see ebooks priced as high as paper ones (sometimes higher). I think ebooks are going to take on the Walmart effect. You make your money by the volume of sales.
Milo - and exposure is huge!
McKenzie - I think you're right. I don't pirate. I will never pirate. There are many people like me who don't feel bad about paying someone for the work they do.
ReplyDeleteThe arguments over the future are almost pointless, as the situation is still evolving. The more successful self-publishers have now started looking at web sales off their own sites. Bob Mayer is big on continually moving forward, aiming not for what is happening now in publishing but what will be happening a year or more form now.
ReplyDeleteJeffO, I think you might be surprised at how inexpensively one can put out a professional package with self-publishing. There are quite a few professional editors who work for ridiculously low wages because they sympathize with self-published writers (quality varies, but some of the excellent ones still charge less than a penny a word). Professional covers can be had from $20 and up, depending on how customized a writer feels they need to go. Formatting help can be had for under $20. Sometimes one of these can be had for free if a friend or family does that sort of thing *professionally*.
I'm not a proponent of the practice, but some self-published writers have done everything themselves (cost to publish $0) and then used sales revenue to gradually upgrade everything. I'm lucky I didn't have to do that, but I don't hold it against someone who is only bootstrapping on a temporary basis.
That article is doing my head in!
ReplyDeleteI'm with a small publisher and I can tell you ebooks have been a saviour. I'm making money (some) now that I can actually sell without worrying about bookshop distribution.
It's hard to know what the future will bring, isn't it? But I find it hard to believe that traditional publishers will disappear and that writers and artists won't get paid for their hard work. Most people can't work for free.
ReplyDeleteI think that writer's will still make money, but not as much and not in traditional ways. Like the internet they'll make money on advertisements and the like. Kind of brings the idea of selling out to the forefront in a new way.
ReplyDeleteMargo - not knowing the future can make it feel like a waste of time. But I do believe we need to plan and prepare--while being flexible.
ReplyDeleteTalli - the ebook thing has really changed so much. The suggestion that people will quit reading seems to fly in the face of statistics for ebook published authors.
Cynthia - exactly. There are a myriad of reasons why people write. I'm not in it for the money; that's not my motivation.
Mark - marketing will be critical, I think. But isn't that true with traditional publishing? There's so much competition. But I still assert that readers will still want to keep reading. It's not like if the market is flooded with books that people will get their fill and not want books anymore (regardless of medium). =D
I need to go read the articles before I can say who I agree with. But I will say that I don't think traditional publishers are going out of business any time soon. They're still buying A LOT of books at THE SAME RATE they have been for years, for publication in 2013, and beyond.
ReplyDeleteThey may go obsolete at some point in the future, but I don't think it will be in the next decade. That's just my personal opinion, based on experiences I've had at a large, traditional publisher.
Elana - as much as I love my Nook, I think I'd cry if I could have my paper books. I hope they don't go away either. I guess the question will be in what form? There are tons of people who can't read on readers. It's too hard on their eyes.
ReplyDeleteTo answer your question, Donna, one of my novels is eBook only (The Last Island), and I just checked on it at three of eReaders (Kindle, iPad, and Nook). In the past 6 weeks I have made a tidy little sum in the 70% of a couple of bucks -- not quite $10. When it gets to $20, I'm going to treat myself to a better bottle of wine.
ReplyDeleteMy story is the norm, not the wild exceptions that make some writer's eyes get big. I have a long publishing history, decent sales, and have been universally well-reviewed, (even in "O" magazine), and I couldn't come close to making a living from what I published.
In fact, my story isn't even the norm. My number of publications and income as a writer puts me in the top 10% ... the other 90% aren't doing even that well. It is being swayed by what one reads about the upper 2% of writers that's inflating the dream.
Dreams are fine, they motive and drive us on through the dismal moments. But reality check: Because Meryl Streep is doing all right, that doesn't mean you're going to be Meryl Streep. Because Eric Clapton makes a pretty good living doesn't mean you are heading for the stage with just a bit more practice. Because you write a vampire novel doesn't mean you will be the next overnight e-millionaire. (Although you'd have a lot better chance that writing what I do: mainstream literary fiction,
I wish you all grand luck. I'm offering reality.
Donigan - I'm glad you do offer reality. I've seen other authors who have been brave enough to put out actual figures. For exactly why you mention yours.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate knowing the reality. As I've said, I'm glad I'm not in this for the money. Heck, I'd be thrilled just to cover my expenses. =D
I will add, and then stop hogging your space, that I have been publishing novels since 1981, I have an MFA from the Iowa Writers Workshop, my first agent was (and is still) considered to be one of the top three literary agents in NY.
ReplyDeletePublishing has changed and is changing faster now, almost warp speed. Two-thirds of my total income as a writer (including two screenplays) came on work before 1990. As the article referenced here quipped: 10,000 is the new 50,000. I thought that was generous. Today it is more like 2,000 is the new 10,000.
I wrote briefly on this same subject last week. If you're interested, you can find it here.
http://doniganmerritt.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/the-times-they-are-afatal/
I have a hard time believing that paper books will be completely gone some day (or rather antiques):), but I suppose it could happen. I hope not - I do enough on the computer as it is, so I like the chance to sit down and feel the pages of a paper book between my hands.
ReplyDeleteDonigan - thanks for the link. I'll check it out.
ReplyDeleteStacy - same here. I've got bookcases full of books (just the ones I love enough to read again and again).
I don't know if it will always be cost effective to print books, but in countries like Jamaica, paper and ink books will always be in vogue. I know there are people here who own Kindles, but I'm the only person I know right now who has one and we don't catch on to some forms of technology easily. What worries me is that books may eventually cost too much to buy if ebooks take off much faster than they have already.
ReplyDeleteJ.L. - That's a really good point about the cost going up, especially if printed books end up being considered luxury items.
ReplyDeleteThere might be less writers paid, but there will always be the need for that profession. Someone has to write the president's speeches!
ReplyDeleteNo chance the publishing industry will idly sit by and not get a piece of the digital pie… they will make sure the writer will make money, because they need to make money.
ReplyDeleteAnd I am also sure, that paper books are not going anywhere, anytime soon.
Alex - you make me laugh. Of course, that doesn't mean the person writing the president's speeches will get paid. I mean authors must be really stupid people if the assumption is they won't accept any money for their hard labors.
ReplyDeleteJeff - good point about the publishers not sitting by and going quietly into the night. Surely there must be some creative thinkers out there who will be using their understanding and experience in the business of publishing that can think outside the box. I think what actually comes out of this upheaval could be quite exciting.
It's all a very interesting debate. But I think if we watch the music industry, the publishing industry will probably follow a parallel, if not totally similar, path. And I don't think there's any reason to be afraid. People need stories.
ReplyDeleteBethany - yes! Like Doritos. Don't worry about eating them all up. They'll make more!
ReplyDeleteInteresting articles, both of them! I don't buy Morrison's premise really, and it doesn't seem that he truly understands the longevity of digital publishing. But I'm not sure I buy Konrath's prediction about the end of publishers. I do think publishers will need to be flexible to survive, but I already see signs of that happening.
ReplyDeleteI think as long as people love to read there will be people willing to pay for new things to read, whether in paper or digital. I can't see the need for books just fading away. And I see hope in the digital world for people who want to have their work read . . . as long as they make it worth reading.
ReplyDeletePeople will always want hard copy. Always. Traditional publishing will be around forever. (yay!)
ReplyDeleteDianne - I think you're right. What could really happy is that those who can't or won't be flexible and creative in the new environment will go away. It will be necessary for the publishing companies and agents to re-create themselves to fit the new environment ... whatever that may be.
ReplyDeleteCathy - that's my hope as well. If digital books are selling so wildly now, that has to be a good sign, right?
Alison - I hope so. I loves me my paper books.
Not that I'm in the know with any of this but I can't say I believe it. Maybe that is just my stubborn will to be published and make some money from it talking but I refuse to buy into the digital age taking over completely. I want my crispy pages and ink stained hands as I flip through a new book. Maybe that's just me though.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I can articulate myself as well (or as colorfully) as Joe, but I agree with his arguments.
ReplyDeleteDeana - I've heard that from a lot of people (including me) ... and then they got an ereader and loved it.
ReplyDeleteMatt - Joe does make a good case. And he's certainly an example of how to succeed.
Early last year I read an article in Time Magazine that talked about the shift in writing. They never claimed writers would've be paid, but they said the big publishers would be the tiny point of the pyramid and free stuff online would make up the large base. Wonder if that guy read that article?
ReplyDeleteI think big publishers and agents are in trouble, but it won't happen overnight, and they won't go down without a fight.
If people (artists and writers, etc.) no longer get paid for their product, they are less likely to produce. What a sad world this would be without it all.
ReplyDeleteOh yes, Mr. Morrison, the digital revolution will bring about the end of paper books--just like dawn of electronic downloads brought about the end of CDs.
ReplyDelete...Oh wait. It DIDN'T.
Great post, Donna! :)
Just some rambling thoughts:
ReplyDeleteEwan's argument that future authors will not get paid appears to hold up when you look at all the eBooks being offered for FREE.
My question: Why would people pay money for books written by new authors if there is no end in sight for free books?
My answer: People will pay for well-written material with excellent product presentation and awesome marketing.
There will always be someone willing to pay for a good product that is well-marketed. (Or can you foresee advertising in the pages of novels, like at the movies and in DVDs?)
I also expect to see revolutionary new marketing strategies for brick and mortar book stores in my lifetime. They know the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" adage has a flip side. The patch-work and "new paint jobs" haven't done the trick so it is time for a complete overhaul. Again, I believe it will all come down to marketing.
L. Diane - if they go down without a fight, they deserve to go down.
ReplyDeleteNancy - I know! And all those starving artists are going to keep going just for the fun of it. Some will, but many would just quite. I think there are many doing the writing thing because they dream of making it big. If that chance is taken away, there're other things they could be doing.
Carrie - you make me smile. But you need to remember that CDs are kind of going the way of the world. Why buy a full CD when I can download a single song (which is all I wanted anyway) for a fraction of the cost.
Gail - I think you've hit the nail on the head. I've been listening to "The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society" again. One character says that reading good books ruins you for the other.
I tagged you in a game! You know I never tag. Go check it out!
ReplyDeleteOh, yes, absolutely. I just meant that they haven't stopped releasing new albums. :)
ReplyDeleteI still have to read the article, but I don't think traditional publishing houses are going to disappear any time soon. They offer much-needed editors (to not only edit, but act as gate keepers to ensure quality projects), cover art, publicity, access to bookstores, and so much more. That said, things are changing. I think when the dust settles, there will be room for traditional books and e-books. I hope so.
ReplyDeleteAA - I can't even shake a finger at you since I tagged you in my last post. =D
ReplyDeleteCarrie - Sometimes I wish I'd gotten those CDs though. Especially when a series of unfortunate events happen to my computer, and suddenly it says I've reach my 5 computer limit for those downloaded songs. Grrr It's the same dang computer!
Dawn - publishers certainly provide support, but I must confess that I'm less than impressed by some of it. Have you paid attention lately to the number mispelled words or other errors in books coming out of major publishers? And it's been happening for years.
I dom't think my comment went through. Anyway, I have heard this argument before. The music industry has survived similar threats. And its flourishing right now. Lots of people making lots of money. The same will hold true for writers. We will have to be smart. Very smart about the business and legal aspects of our rights and threats against our intellectual properties though.
ReplyDeleteI think that in the end, everything will work out just fine. :)
ReplyDelete